And maybe we can go to Trent and then Steve. For example, we could ask the question were the apostles baptized? First Corinthians 15, in my opening statement, it says that there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies and people who have earthly bodies are sown perishable, meaning corruptible in dishonor, meaning contempt, reproach. Okay. Being sinful is saying that you have inherited original sin and becoming sin means that sin was imputed to you. In fact, Josephus recorded a Zechariah being killed in the temple thirty-five years after the crucifixion (Jewish War 4:5:4). My screen name is BornAgainRN, so you can look at me that way. Okay. Lastly, Psalm 69:8 is a messianic verse, I have become estranged from my brothers and an alien to my mothers sons. Because verse nine begins with for, which is a conjunction, meaning because, since, or therefore, indicating that the same Messiah who would experience zeal for your house in verse nine is also the same Messiah whose mother would have other children in verse eight, which prophesied Jesus younger half brothers not believing in him in John 7:3-5 and dishonoring him in Mark 6:3-4, which occurred earlier in Mark 3:20-21 when they accused Jesus of being out of his senses, just as the future King David rebuked his oldest brother. Mary also did not need to be bodily assumed to heaven like Enoch and Elijah, so they would not see death, supported by the earliest church tradition, indirectly supported by Scripture, and strongly implied by the dogma itself. The same in any intellectual study. Those are both problematic. Back to top Alert abuse. All right, Steve, whenever you begin, I Actually, just give me one second. So I think Catholics have a way to honor Mary as the mother of God without divinizing her. Mark chapter three, even though it doesnt explicitly state that these are Jesuss siblings, the Greek word literally means to be, like of that individual. And again, thats the view of John Chrysostom. Origen and Melito present lists that modern scholars recognize are of Jewish origin and so they lack the deuterocanonicals, but even these lists are missing books such as Esther and Lamentations. He also did color commentary for the University at Buffalo Bulls football team on WECK radio. And if he had met sister-in-law, such as Marys sister in John chapter 19, he wouldve utilize the Greek word, [Greek 00:47:36] thats used in the book of Ruth to describe Orpahs relationship with Ruth. He might redeem or rescue from bondage those who were under the law because we, which includes Mary, have redemption, the forgiveness of sins, Colossians 1:14. In his work The Bible is a Catholic Book, Akin notes of the Pharisees canon that the boundaries of this collection were still somewhat fuzzy. Sure. If Mary was a immaculate conceived, why would Joseph and her kinsfolk who knew her-. Protestants disagree. That seems to be something that went without contention. Jesus became sin, thats why he died. Thanks for being a supporter mate. But Paul stopped being a Pharisee after he became a Christian. When Mary says My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God, my savior. This doesnt prove that Mary committed a sin. So do it. Steve Christie also has his own website. No, Im not saying that the use of the definite article means that Mary had only one child. All right, so the Bible does not say that Mary committed a sin. All right. Trent had mentioned about the age of accountability. Their issue is not about Mary. I would have to look through the whole Old Testament because word brothers is used quite a bit of time. And again, as a Roman Catholic, I would expect them to because their issue is not about Mary. So at an early age, I think about around age three. So is this your view, Jesus and his siblings have the same mother but they have different fathers? In fact, in the early church, it would be idolatry. Isaiah 49:26 describes God as savior and Redeemer echoed in Galatians 4:4-5. Thats because they quoted primarily from the Septuagint, or the Greek Old Testament. And in the Reformation, the two doctrines that came out of it was Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. I command that you do it. Okay. And even there, he admitted it doesnt explicitly talk about Mary. So feel free to answer that briefly. He writes, As a Pharisee, the apostle Paul would have understood the Law and the Prophets to refer to only those writings found in Protestant Old Testaments today. But this argument fails for the following reasons. The other reason was that as a Canadian citizen, playing one game in the CFL, would be great way to finish his career. Okay. And notice that Steve kept saying, Yeah, it says all have sinned. Jesus, of course, is the exception. Oh wow. Oh, wow. So unlike Twitter and YouTube, Im not going to get banned from saying the sorts of things I say that go against secular dogma. There might be historical errors, for example, in some magisterial documents, talking about the history of a doctrine, whether a certain saint or father believed X, Y, or Z. Infallibility has a narrow sense and only covers what is specifically defined. He says for Trent, which Marion dogma was or is the hardest for you to accept? In week 9 vs. the New York Jets, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (20, 29, & 34 yards). 23:2), some of whom were not Pharisees. 2022 Defenders Media All Rights Reserved, Apologetics315 is a ministry of Defenders Media, 501(c)(3) a non-profit organization. Okay. You just have to join locals in the same way youd have to join Twitter or Facebook to get access to it. Catholic answers the firms that while Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin, yet she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam, such as death. This means not only was she conceived sinless, but remained sinless her entire life. No, thats not the case. Certainly they were baptized Catholics, but they opposed whatever they thought the church taught that contradicted sacred Scripture in a wide variety of doctrines, except they didnt contradict on Mary being the mother of God or her being ever Virgin. Second, this debate is not about the church fathers or Christian history. The resolution for this debate is the Marian Dogmas contradict scripture. And I think thats something that we do find. Nice to have you. Thank you very much, Steve. Yeah, no, Steve, if you want to give me the links to those over email, Ill be sure to put them in the description below so people can easily find them. Im not sure. As Trent Horn shared with Matt Fradd on Sips with Aquinas Ooh. Im not sure that that is in Genesis 19:9. But when we look at something like Strongs for example, are you aware that Strongs defines adelphos and adelphe the same way? Contrary to what Steve said this has been infallibly defined, though before the ex cathedra statements of the First Vatican Counsel. As long the difference between Mariological title versus Christological title, thats probably where we would disagree, but go ahead. Because the word adelphi would imply that they Its normal use would be that you have the same parents, at least one of the same parents. While the New Testament does use different Greek words translated until to refer to the condition continuing after the event, such as [foreign language 00:02:21] on its own, [foreign language 00:02:25] is never used once this way in the entire New Testament. Campbell states that when it comes to Josephus claims about a universal Hebrew canon, as well as an entire manuscript tradition that had never been altered, Josephuss rhetoric has run ahead of reality. EDWARD D. ANDREWS (AS in Criminal Justice, BS in Religion, MA in Biblical Studies, and MDiv in Theology) is CEO and President of Christian Publishing House. Athanasius likewise calls Wisdom and Judith Scripture and appeals to Wisdom 7:25-27 as evidence for the deity of Christ. So Im not saying that Catholics are actively worshiping Mary or statues of Mary, but we have to be careful with the word of veneration. Steve, we just heard from David Wright, the clock is ticking, those batteries could run out by early next week. Thats all I wanted to say. So Mary being assumed into heaven, dying, which is the majority view among theologians, does not show that she had sin. In Super Bowl XXVIII, Christie set a Super Bowl record by kicking a 54-yard field goal. As far as Revelation chapter one to six, I dont see anything thats in there that talks about Mary. Im not alone in believing this. In Ineffabilis Deus, where immaculate conception is defined, the word unanimous appears once. It is often said, in order to detect a counterfeit bill, you dont study other counterfeit bills, but instead you first study the genuine thing, then youll be able to detect a counterfeit easily. Add another name to the list of Buffalo Bills greats who have endured a traumatic 2014.The Bills' all-time greatest kicker, Steve Christie, Ex-Bills kicker Steve Christie reveals his successful . Are you going to answer the question, does it describe her giving birth to anyone else or say she gave birth to anyone else? Okay. So summarize, the Bible does not teach that Mary sin nor does it teach that every single human being has committed a sin or inherited original sin without exception. So Steve is saying that the word adelphi, which means sister. This contradicts the last dogma of the Bodily Assumption of Mary to Heaven infallibly defined ex cathedra by Pope Pius the 12th in 1950, which states after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of heaven, which strongly implies she died first. Thats not true. According to one commentary Marys song like Hannahs declares that security and significance are found in a God who would care about the broken and poor enough to give himself to them. Zacharias' daughter, Sarah Davis, posted a message on the website of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries on Tuesday, titled " Ravi Zacharias, Now With Jesus ," confirming that the . He became sinner. Yet many Protestants believe in this doctrine. I dont think he could do that. So I think that was an excellent opening statement. Let me ask you this, was Jesus Christ free from sin? Yet evidence of her sinful nature was her lack of exemption of the temporal penalty of death passed on to her from Adams. Type it in. Yes. William Albrecht has done a lot of great work on Mary. Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Now the doctrine of original sin is true, but the Bible does not explicitly say that it applies to every single individual without exception. Peter - A Leader in Apologetics How many times have you heard the Apostle Peter portrayed as the brash fisherman whose mouth was always several steps ahead of his brain? No, I dont think you are following my point. To say here Richard [Bachum 00:28:46], for example, who rejects, a Protestant scholar who rejects the Perpetual Virginity of Mary says, Its strange Jesus is called the son of Mary in Mark 6:3, rather than the son of Joseph. But that would make sense if Jesus had been born of Josephs second wife, Mary. As Roman Catholics, because Mary was not an issue, they did have a problem with her being a perpetual Virgin and I believe Calvin was kind of on the fence about it, so its irrelevant because theyre Catholic. In Luke 1:28, the angel uses it as a descriptor of Mary within a personal address, similar to how John the Baptist used the lamb of God to speak about Jesus, and that talks about the significance there. So my quick mini rebuttal. It is forbidden to any man to change this, to oppose and counter it. So yeah, I would just encourage people just to continue to read and learn, dive into the word, dive into the teachings of the church historically, just to come to a knowledge of the church Jesus Christ established. You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. But if their authority is a Roman Catholic church and the Magisterium, then it becomes an authority issue because then youre submitting to an authority that is also teaching something different about salvation that has nothing to do with these dogmas. Should we baptize babies or not? H. He then went on to kick five field goals in the Bills 29-10 win over the Miami Dolphins in the AFC championship game, helping Buffalo get to their third consecutive Super Bowl. Did they believe that the doctrine of Marys perpetual virginity violated the authority of scripture? Because once again, not every truth of the faith, not every truth about first century life, for example, has been handed down to us. I just want to make sure. Calvin did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. This is known as [inaudible 01:09:50]. So we could assume that they have the same biological mother and father. Okay, I get that. When it came to the immaculate conception, Steve did not really put forward any argument to show Mary sinned herself. Christie has nine field goals in overtime to his credit, an NFL record he shares with Jason Elam and Jim Breech. I already addressed Psalm 65, but Steve said, Well, the sins were applied to Jesus in a non-literal way. Right, but notice what it says in Psalm 69:5 of the Messiah, Oh God, thou knowest my folly. How about Marys parents and Joseph who was from the same tribe who she was betrothed to? You can see him and others talk about this on the Reason and Theology Channel. A four-month investigation found the late Ravi Zacharias leveraged his reputation as a world-famous Christian apologist to abuse massage therapists in the United States and abroad over more than. Then Psalm 69:5 is applied non literally to Jesus and I would say Psalm 69:8 about mothers and brethren is applied non literally as well. Might give you a slight nudge in the direction, but by no means a full proof. The connection of apologetics with evangelism is best summarized by Oxford theologian Alister E. McGrath: " So here, Mary can be talking about salvation from threats in this life, not sin. So does the Bible say Mary gave birth to anyone besides Jesus? An interview of Gary Habermas with Steve Forkin of No Apologies; Video Link . Make an Appointment So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. The fact that this is used of Mary is very unusual. None of the authors of the deuterocanonical books refer to a delineated list of writings (Hebrew, Ketuvim) within a closed Hebrew canon that did not include their own works. The Greek word translated until does not exclude normal marital conduct after Jesus birth. The other thing about Jesus is, yes, Jesus did not sin, but the Bible says that he took on sin, which is different than actually inheriting sin because, again, he is conceived by the Holy Spirit, unlike Mary, who is actually conceived in sin. Then theres going to be a time of cross-examination, and then were going to do 30 minutes of Q&A. And eventually those ended up being dropped throughout the debate. But there are many problems with this speculative argument. Okay. And again, scripture states, Because Jesus is God is why he would not inherit sin like Mary did, because Mary is not God, unless Trent is going in that direction, which I dont think it is. Trent mentioned about dying once. 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