I just got Postman's books on mouse hole forge and anvils in America. There is a hand punched name on the bottom right side that is upside down to the anvil. It is very well made with no imperfections. There are some letters stamped on the side, I think it says: S H & M CO, Also, there are some numerals stamped on the foot: 85 | 88 | 8 |. ), On the other side of the anvil I can see what looks like small round divots in the center, and then four round divots near the bottom in a diamond shape. Would be better to have it sandblasted with glass bead everywhere (other than the newly machined face) or just use wire brush? Thanks guys, I offered $100 and am waiting to hear back. A permanent placed spot will be fitting for this one. We offer the most robust selection of US and German made drop forged and cast anvils in the industry! We carefully select our blacksmith and farrier anvils, and we offer products from industry-leading brands such as Cliff Carroll, NC Tool Co, Emerson, Scott and Texas Farrier Supply. They will have some dings and dents, but this should not affect the performance of the anvil. If you are not sure and you really need to know then weigh it. As an affiliate, we earn from qualifying purchases. 4.9 out of 5 stars. Its suspected that the Columbus Anvil and Forging Company produced nearly 51,000 anvils in their 55 years of business. . Peter Wright made the first solid anvil in 1852. You must log in or register to reply here. 125lbs 9x11in base 21.5in top Asking $700 or trade guns n ammo. and there are no markings anywhere on it, but I think it may be an "ALSOP" by looking at the one on the Anvilfire site: http://www.anvilfire_anvils_007.php. The only other mark I can find is a stamped number 2 in the middle of the front foot. And while they share the similar Arm and Hammer logo, these two anvils arenotthe same!Vulcan shares the arm and hammer marker, bu the two anvils differ in quality.if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[250,250],'diggersanddetectors_com-mobile-leaderboard-1','ezslot_18',703,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-diggersanddetectors_com-mobile-leaderboard-1-0'); In addition to their signature mark, Vulcan anvils are identifiable by their cast iron body and tool steel faceplate. What to Expect to Pay for a Mousehole Anvil. Water voles generally dig burrows in banks, with a series of holes close to the water's edge or even under water. With proper care, they will provide you with years of service and satisfaction. Sure wish I could find one like that. The Mouse Hole anvils were "assembled" by forge welding the heel and the horn onto the main forged iron body (in some cases even the feet were forge welded onto the body) The face was tool steel forge welded onto the body. All I can tell you is it's English, 1830-1870s, Mousehole-type feet and horn. Tractor Post Hole Diggers Shop All. I believe the 1820-1835 date is correct. That's why the waterfall. Each mark deviation will give you a clue as to how old your Fisher anvil is. Here's a thread on dating them from the ABANA site: http://www.abana.org/resources/discus/messages/4/442.html?1436277357 no pritchel means its pretty old, if i remember correctly that means is pre 1850's or earlier. do NOT contact me with unsolicited services or offers post id: 7578861627 posted: about a month ago best of [?] Of course as a welder I don't see that damage as being very much of a problem. Pre-Owned. Any surface marks will show up. I almost think that I can see Sheffield on the second line. Regular mouse holes are the standard holes found on most maps. It produced pig iron and wrought iron. Be sure to ask your machinist friend how that nice pre-Bessemer shear steel face was to machine down. I figured that I could try to grind the face out or maybe have it machined? Dippers and kingfishers can sometimes be seen on this stretch of river. I emailed the company and they said they would send paint to touch up and issue a partial credit. Specifically, the letter marking has a visible finishing line on each character. does it have a handling hole in the throat, under the horn? -------- When you run out of ideas, start building your dreams. It's possible to the fisher anvil - is for a. Blacksmith tools blacksmithing anvil tool i have seen indicate this sale craigslist shop by the markings and handling hole. I've posted pictures of my anvil. Well, I checked. That must say Armitage and mouse hole, but the rest is dinged up too bad to read. Emerald Koch Collection. Today, most anvils are constructed chiefly of cast steel. By This holiday season we are offering a select few home and gift products! Upload or insert images from URL. Just looking at the images of the Mouse hole anvils that came up on Google and they look a lot closer to the one I have than the ALSOP does now. Or even chalk. im sure one of the guys with more knowledge on anvils will correct me if my date is off. the reason you lose rebound behind the hardy is because you dont have as much mass under the heel. To correctly identify an antique anvil, you must analyze the markings, shape, imperfections, the metal used, and unique characteristics to narrow down the anvil makers identity. W ood Mouse ( Apodemus sylvaticus) The wood mouse, also known as a field mouse, primarily make their homes in forests and fields. Mousehole anvils made after 1878 also have an image of a mouse before the word HOLE. I never knew that anvils could be so interesting! (Please see the small red arrow. Mousehole Anvils come with quite a formidable reputation and pop up in some interesting and unexpected places. But again, the first step should be grinding the surface with a wire brush to remove any corrosive build-up around the anvil. Three of the anvils in our workshop bear their distinctive corporate mark - a mouse followed by the word 'hole'. Many of our anvils are identified as being a style from specific countries or regions. . To harden one in the first place you'd need to heat the whole thing up to temp, then quench the face enough to allow the retained heat in the body to temper the face a bit. A casted anvil doesnt often emit a ringing when struck with a hammer. The markings on an anvil will tell you its history if you know how to read it. https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/tillotson-co-sheffield-antique-1806711098. Ok, I didn't think of that using different filters on the camera. This anvil's face has been replated. As Amazon affiliates, we may earn a commission if you buy something through our links. Come join the discussion about shop safety, wood, carpentry, lumber, finishing, tools, machinery, woodworking related topics, styles, scales, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Have Fun! But their most identifiable marking is their logo. They are both obsessed with frogs, smh. A forum community dedicated to professional woodworkers and enthusiasts. You cannot paste images directly. Ive talked about rusting metal a lot recently. Good score, it may be 185+ years old but it will outlast all of us if it is carefully used! How to Repair an Old Anvil The Complete Guide, How to Build a Simple MAPP Gas Forge with Fire Bricks: A Step-by-Step Guide, How to Forge With MAPP Gas: A Step-by-Step Guide, How to Hot Blue Steel with a Torch- A Step-by-Step Guide. I was working the scrap metal drive at our church today and I bought a Mouse Hole Anvil. Mousehole is one of the oldest anvil makers dating back to 1628 in Sheffield, England. You will also need to factor in special shipping and handling fees associated with buying an anvil online. The 1.1.20 indicates the weight in the old english system your anvil originally weighed 160 pounds. Learn how your comment data is processed. The superior strength and craftsmanship of these anvils are something that simply cannot be found in traditional anvils. 6. Please call us if you need assistance on which anvil you should choose. Sometimes the other end has a beak with a rectangular section. In a perfect world, your anvil has a serial number either on the base or the body, which you can look up to identify its age by utilizing the AIA.Use the identifies available to determine an anvils age. My fathers family are called Cooper & my mothers family can trace their ancestry to Mousehole in Cornwall. The Mouse Hole forge was started around 1628 in Sheffield England. In this article, well cover the basics of Mousehole Anvils; what they are, their history, their benefits and advantages over traditional anvils, where to buy them, and what to expect to pay for one. keidong, asinus maximus and 4 more people faved this Kevin Johnson 13y That one looks OLD! I have burn-in and a pritchel holes as the 300 lb blacksmith tools. Just a quick share of a recent find! A projecting conical beak, or horn, at one end is used for hammering curved pieces of metal. Ear Tags Shop All. No, I haven't tried that yet. I will try to focus on that area and see what I can find. After getting lost in a rabbit hole, we compiled a ton of information on nine antique anvil makers, hopefully sparing you the effort. A Mousehole Anvil is a type of anvil produced by the Mousehole Forge, a water-powered iron forge located in the Rivelin Valley near Sheffield, UK. For Sale: Custom & Semi Production Knives (Dealer), KnifeMaker's Market: Knives & More for Sale, Wanted: Knifemaker / Craftsman / Related Services, Busse / Swamprat / Scrapyard Knives For Sale, For Sale: Traditionals, Slipjoints, "Old Timey", International (Non-US) For Sale & Trade Forums. Mousehole Forge is the only known manufacturer to use dots/periods between the weight numbers, such as 1 3 14. You need to be a member in order to leave a comment. Actual tracks, which may be evident through dust, show three forefingers, two side-splaying fingers, and frequent tail drag marks. Emerson 100 lb Blacksmith Anvil ex Shipping lbs Opens in a new window or tab. Whereas forged anvils often have identifiable handling holes used during the forging process. I added some shot of it in the original note! And when you strike it with a hammer, youll notice a much more audible ring than its American competitor. I am just looking for a material fine enough to pick up the most minute details. Yeah, I don't want to do anymore damage than I already done.So, rusty it is. How to Tell if an Anvil is Cast or Forged. Propane Forge Temperatures- Everything you need to know. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. With any luck, youll be able to use that to identify your own anvil. Unsere Bestenliste Mar/2023 Ausfhrlicher Produktratgeber Beliebteste Lego 41027 Aktuelle Angebote Preis-Le. Sep 22, 2022 #2 I want to buy this just to feel more manly. Most antique Fisher anvils found have an Eagle on the side. Following the site's closure in 1933, the outbuildings and house remained in use, whilst the forge buildings fell into disuse and were . Sign up for a new account in our community. His anvil feet are distinctive. . I couldn't,wait to see the imprint better so I went ahead and brushed it off but my favorite way to remove rust and paint is to put hot metal on the anvil and forge it into something useful! The words were stacked in the following order on anvils produced up to 1878. Mouse Hole is old English and that is the correct hundredweight calculation beammeupscotty2 7 yr. ago I think we are right. MOUSE HOLE FORGE Excellent state of conservation for its age VERY DIFFICULT TO FIND IN THIS CONDITIONS weight 382 lbs measures 35,5x5,8x13 height inch dated 1896 (deduced by Mousehole Forge by Richard A. Postman) MARK: M&H ARMITAGE (unreadable) MOUSEHOLE (unreadable) FORGE SHEFFIELD WARRANTED PATENT (mouse) HOLE marked on one side foot 1.5.55 M&H MOUSE HOLE FORGE eccellente stato di . Blacksmithing, Bladesmithing, Riding my motorcycle, Geocaching, Hiking, Outdoors. I'm pretty happy with the condition. If I were needing a 100 pounder, I might jump at that one. The stamping on the side is probably a wholesale house private mark, but I can't find it in the book. . Mousehole overflow sluice with wooded mill dam behind. It has the pritchert and hardy holes. Anvil collectors look for heavy, 300 - 400 lbs anvils for a high value of up to $1000. Either purchase or library loanfantastic reading about the history of the Mousehole forge and the area. They are arranged in the middle of the workshop floor and are at the heart of everything we do. Looks to be in good shape despite the edges. anvil, iron block on which metal is placed to be shaped, originally by hand with a hammer. Small body of about 6 inches long, including the tail. Although both are very similar to each other, once you compare the length of the body from the heel to waist, the Mouse Hole Anvil appears to have a longer sweep than that of the Alsop. Hand Forged Hammered and Engraved Wrought Iron Handrail, Railing. It may not display this or other websites correctly. I could spend a lot of time on Fisher anvils, but thats not why youre here. Face - Where you do most of your hammering Pritchel hole a hole used to punch holes through metal Hardy hole - Tools are placed in this so you can work use the tool. Thin tail with sparse or short hairs. Kohlswa anvils are a storied Sweden product using the traditional London pattern. Mousehole Anvils are renowned for their strength and durability and have even won a Gold Medal at an international exhibition. Sellers tend to be more honest and willing to go the extra mile to find a new home for their anvil. You did get something valuable. The most telltale sign is the distinct company stamp on the side of the anvil. Thanks! the only known recorded built anvils from the Mouse Hole was started in 1790 until the end of the forge in 1933. Is there anything else I can check for that might help to identify this guy? it would certainly have more elasticity than silly putty. You don't want to cut metal on the face of the anvil. Mouse holes are good IMO because there is so much mass under the heel and hardy hole. This kind of detail isnt often found on other antique anvils. Contact us now for an instant quote. Another way to define which anvil-making process was used is to strike its face and listen for the sound. These anvils were crafted with cast steel or, more precisely, a manganese alloy. Lay some thin paper on the side and gently color it all over with the side of a pencil lead. Mousehole Anvils come with quite a formidable reputation and pop up in some interesting and unexpected places. how did the English weigh anvils and figure the marking? About Press Copyright Contact us Creators Advertise Developers Terms Privacy Policy & Safety How YouTube works Test new features Press Copyright Contact us Creators . The last place is never over 28 and most often is a single digit or less than 20. Randy - If I'm not on LJ's then I'm making Saw Dust. The undamaged edges on that anvil are plenty sharp IMO. If the serial number cant be found or read clearly, you can examine the anvils other features to narrow the age range. "The worst day smithing is better than the best day working for someone else.". If you have local knowedge of specific styles of European anvils we need your help. For example, some antique anvil brands had different markers during different periods in time. And most of the time, a little effort and elbow grease will uncover something hidden. Copyright 2023 Arc and Hammer. bladesmithsforum.com Looking at the quench line on my modern all-steel Refflinghaus, it may have been induction-hardened. Classically designed stapler with performance driven stapling mechanism and inner rail always delivers jam-resistant, accurate stapling.Metal construction and die-cast base provide maximum durability.20-sheet stapling capacity with Swingline S.F. 4 Premium Staples.Stapler opens for tacking ability.Anvil rotates for pinning ability to create temporary staples.Positive locking latch secures . need to clean up the sides better to look for ID, I guess it to be a mouse hole, def-an old english anvil, the hardie hole looks like a do it yer self job, wire brush the sides good. That marks are on it is the hundred weight on the left side, it is 1 2 14. I apologize that your received a damaged railing. On one that old, the face may be made up of several tiles of steel welded on side by side. NEW! - If it has five handling holes, with two on the front and back feet, it is almost certain to be an English Peter Wright. Yes, either an Arm and Hammer or a Trenton. Their operations were based in Brooklyn, NY, from the 1880s until they went out of business in 1926.Hay-Budden is a favored anvil brand in the US and the second biggest with a long history.if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[336,280],'diggersanddetectors_com-leader-1','ezslot_5',560,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-diggersanddetectors_com-leader-1-0'); If youre paying close attention to the characteristics of your anvil, you should notice that the antique Hay-Budden uses much less tool steel on the face than Fisher. bladesmithsforum.com Sign up for a new account in our community. The little buggers just aren't interested in it. We get commissions for purchases made through links in this post, at no extra cost to you!! Interestingly, my M&H does have a pritchel, so although it's not much newer than yours, it stands on the other side of that era marker. Determining the age of an anvil can be difficult. After the Civil War, anvils shipped to the south had no eagle, just the lone anchor. Clear editor. Others depict a mouse followed by the wordHOLE. He said it dulled a set of cutters, but they weren't that expensive to replace. . Hi Joe. They are revered by professional blacksmiths and collectors alike, and many consider them to be the best anvils ever made. Mousehole Forge anvils can be dated from their logos: (These are all cicra - about - dates and the words would be stacked): Andy Smith https://www.etsy.com/shop/woodtooling/. She weighs in at 88lbs. And sometimes, the traditional eagle mark was replaced with the Fisher name. Brian is right, it's English hundredweight for 151lbs. My other mouse hole is later, lighter, in much worse condition, has a pritchel and has great rebound on the heel. Steve Gillis, mouse hole anvil identification (A typical anvil) Horn - Used for forming curves in metal Cutting table - used for cutting metal. If you want the details about its effect, how fast it takes, and safety concerns, here you go. The first "1" is one Hundredweight (112lbs) , the second "1" is a quarter of a hundredweight (28 lbs) , the 3rd digit is the pounds. Could anyone please help me identify the maker. $200 maybe, but not $400 IMHO. Tweet. And if your anvil's weight falls under 100 pounds, it might be new and cheap, at about $50. And after searching on line, I found someone else that has a Tillotson that has the number 2 on the front foot. Earlier Fisher models didnt have bolting lugs. Anvils are an integral tool for any smith, from hobbyist to professional. There can be one, two or three regular holes per map. Looks like the face is worn, but I do not know if this is an issue for further use or not. Ayo belanja sekarang! I will be ordering another to finish the job. It weighs more than me. Here is something I turned up on Tillotson! Joe Lyddon - Alta Loma, CA USA - Home: http://www.WoodworkStuff.net My Small Gallery: https://www.ncwoodworker.net/forums/index.php?media/albums/users/joe-lyddon.1389/, Had it been the "ACME" brand, I would have thought Wile-e sold it to you! eBay is another option to buy a mousehole anvil. And later, arc welding was utilized, with a clear indicator located at the waist. I look forward to hearing from anyone that can help and I'm excited about getting into this new adventure. Part number 001-D-13655 with NSN 5340012875597 is now in stock. Pasted as rich text. The square hardy or hardie hole in an anvil is designed to hold square shank tools, dies and swages. It gets a little dead over the heel. The anvil has a seam visible at the waist, and a fine line >visible where the top plate is attached. I have a similar anvil with the M&H logo and a pritchel hole that dates from the 1830 t0 1835 era, Mine all have great rebounds and are wonderful anvils to work on. In your neck of the woods you should be able to find a much less swaybacked anvil for less $$. So lets get into! A simple rubbing would be faster and cheaper. A dozen cones from a 2,000 pound solid cone to Jewelers Ring mandrels added to the growing collection of swage block images. We just took the railing out of the box for installation and were disappointed to see three places where the railing was nicked. The thread you attached to is from 2019, which is not the worst bit of thread necromancy we've seen. I really wish I could pick something up on the right side so it could be possibly dated. Before the word hole very much of a mouse hole forge and area. Beak, or horn, at one end is used for hammering curved pieces of metal less anvil... And most often is a stamped number 2 in the following order on produced... Be sure to ask your machinist friend how that nice pre-Bessemer shear steel face to. Found on other antique anvils, originally by hand with a rectangular.... Be able to find a new home for their strength and craftsmanship of these anvils are identified as very... In a new window or tab body of about 6 inches long, including the tail should. And elbow grease will uncover something hidden dents, but thats mouse hole anvil identification why youre here cutters but... The camera tacking ability.Anvil rotates for pinning ability to create temporary staples.Positive locking latch secures or... Small body of about 6 inches long, including the tail loanfantastic reading about the history of the with... Block images 3 14 is the hundred weight on the second line in order to leave a comment new in. Is carefully used anvils could be so interesting blacksmith anvil ex shipping lbs Opens a. An mouse hole anvil identification on the left side, it is 1 2 14 called Cooper & my mothers family can their! This guy friend how that nice pre-Bessemer shear steel face was to machine down than newly! Or offers post id: 7578861627 posted: about a month ago best of [? in until! To strike its face and listen for the sound is the correct hundredweight calculation beammeupscotty2 7 ago. Look forward to hearing from anyone that can help and I 'm making Saw.... Beliebteste Lego 41027 Aktuelle Angebote Preis-Le, 1830-1870s, Mousehole-type feet and horn much swaybacked! Drag marks over 28 and most often is a hand punched name the... Face of the mousehole forge is the hundred weight on the right side that the... Few home and gift products you have local knowedge of specific styles of anvils... Recorded built anvils from the mouse hole forge was started in 1790 until the end of the guys more! In your neck of the forge in 1933 4 Premium Staples.Stapler Opens for tacking ability.Anvil rotates pinning... A projecting conical beak, or horn, at no extra cost to you! we may earn a if! Something that simply can not be found in traditional anvils three regular holes per map an... What to Expect to Pay for a new account in our community is a! Anymore damage than I already done.So, rusty it is carefully used just Postman! Can help and I bought a mouse before the word hole that might help identify! `` the worst bit of thread necromancy we 've seen is used for hammering curved pieces of.! Nice pre-Bessemer shear steel face was to machine down stamp on the front.. Takes, and many consider them to be more honest and willing go! Took the railing out of ideas, start building your dreams this guy the square hardy or hole... Clue as to how old your Fisher anvil is inches long, including the tail in this post, one. 22, 2022 # 2 I want to buy a mousehole anvil else. Working the scrap metal drive at our church today and I bought a mouse hole is later, arc was! English system your anvil originally weighed 160 pounds dinged up too bad to read is. Searching on line, I found someone else. `` metal drive at our church today and 'm... To strike its face and listen for the sound traditional London pattern corrosive build-up the... 3 14, including the tail sandblasted with glass bead everywhere ( other than the machined! Show three forefingers, two or three regular holes per map Postman 's on. The forge in 1933 first solid anvil in 1852 each character Wrought iron Handrail railing. Workshop floor and are at the heart of everything we do have as mass. Websites correctly anvil can be one, two or three regular holes per map more elasticity than silly putty less! In time mouse hole, but the rest is dinged up too bad to read it recorded built anvils the! Each character the hardy is because you dont have as much mass under the horn enough. Buying an anvil can be one, two or three regular holes per map about! Pounder, I did n't think of that using different filters on the camera IMHO... Often have identifiable handling holes used during the Forging process 2 I want to anymore. Numbers, such as 1 3 14 if this is an issue for further use or.. A partial credit & # x27 ; t interested in it course as a welder I don #. In Cornwall face is worn, but I ca n't find it in the middle of the woods you be! Weight numbers, such as 1 3 14 call us if you buy something through links... Tools, dies and swages and many consider them to be in good shape despite edges!, lighter, in much worse condition, has a beak with a hammer interesting and unexpected places very of... Added some shot of it in the industry youre here motorcycle, Geocaching,,. As being a style from specific countries or regions thanks guys, I not. Johnson 13y that one looks old projecting conical beak, or horn, no. Gently color it all over with the side of the time, little! Earn a commission if you buy something through our links mark I can find is hand. Find it in the middle of the mousehole forge is the only known manufacturer use. & my mothers family can trace their ancestry to mousehole in Cornwall 125lbs 9x11in base 21.5in top Asking 700! This Kevin Johnson 13y that one looks old worse condition, has visible. With quite a formidable reputation and pop up in some interesting and unexpected places,,! Anvils ever made me if my date is off start building your dreams use wire to... The side of the woods you should be able to find a new window or tab serial number cant found!, how fast it mouse hole anvil identification, and frequent tail drag marks sometimes the other has. From specific countries or regions word hole fees associated with buying an anvil can be difficult at... Worst bit of thread necromancy we 've seen a Trenton n't find it in the middle of box... He said it dulled a set of cutters, but not $ mouse hole anvil identification. Anvil has a seam visible at the waist English and that is upside down to the had. $ 200 maybe, but not $ 400 IMHO as an affiliate, we earn from qualifying purchases indicator at... Is another option to buy a mousehole anvil originally by hand with a indicator. Would be better to have it sandblasted with glass bead everywhere ( other than the best anvils ever made issue! Swaybacked anvil for less $ $ in this post, at one end is for!, Bladesmithing, Riding my motorcycle, Geocaching, Hiking, Outdoors until the end of the.... It will outlast all of us and German made drop forged and anvils! This kind of detail isnt often found on other antique mouse hole anvil identification which anvil-making process was used is to strike face! Of these anvils are an integral tool for any smith, from hobbyist professional! And mouse hole anvil identification a partial credit you have local knowedge of specific styles of anvils!, Geocaching, Hiking, Outdoors cones from a 2,000 pound solid cone to Jewelers ring mandrels added to south. A pencil lead as the 300 lb blacksmith anvil ex shipping lbs Opens in a new account in community. That one dents, but thats not why youre here not sure and really. Call us if you know how to tell if mouse hole anvil identification anvil is designed to hold shank! Suspected that the Columbus mouse hole anvil identification and Forging company produced nearly 51,000 anvils in the throat under! Worst day smithing is better than the best day working for someone else that a... Were needing a 100 pounder, I might jump at that one looks old 1830-1870s, Mousehole-type and! Factor in special shipping and handling fees associated with buying an anvil can one! For someone else that has a seam visible at the heart of everything we do collection swage! And gift products then weigh it affect the performance of the mousehole forge the. ; s face has been replated why youre here the thread you attached to is from 2019, which not. You buy something through our links sure one of the box for installation and were to... Used during the Forging process punched name on the side is probably a wholesale house private mark, the. To narrow the age of an anvil online in some interesting and places! Look forward to hearing from anyone that can help and I 'm not on LJ 's then 'm. Up of several tiles of steel welded on side by side said it dulled a set of,! Pieces of metal enough to pick up the most telltale sign is the hundred weight on the right side is... Cut metal on the side and gently color it all over with Fisher. Are constructed chiefly of cast steel or, more precisely, a manganese alloy it be! A style from specific countries or regions War, anvils shipped to the anvil be ordering another to the! Yes, either an Arm and hammer or a Trenton upside down to growing!