Every single person there loves Harvest so much that they cant leave?? I REMEMBER STORIES OF FREAKOUTS AND LONG-TERM TERROR REACTIONS FROM CHURCH SCREENINGS OF THIEF IN THE NIGHT WHAT WOULD YOU EXPECT FROM DOING THE SAME TO YOUNGER KIDS WITH PASSION OF THE CHRIST? LLS, honest question in all of these elder rule setups Ive ever seen, there is no mechanism at all for pew peons to do as you note and hold elders accountable for anything. Both HBC and WBC had a plurality of Yes-Men Courtiers around a Pastor/Dictator O COME LET US ADORE HIM!. Seriously, I believe 100% that the theological DNA is the problem, and that Truth was genetically modified centuries ago. And to link them together as a Body of Christ, each one uniquely gifted to be a part of the whole something the institutional church just doesnt appear to get. Then I read actual instructions on the veneration of Elders as of Christ himself. you mention they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff?. It was given to the elders two months ago. I will add that I know several women who want out badly, but their husbands refuse. After the scene, which seemed to drag on and on, pastor walked to the podium and with that quivery, dramatic pastor voice. Clement may be writing as if those offices are an established fact, but for all we know, they could have been set up a few years previously as an organizational attempt and they were used to it. And theres a high likelihood this statement will get them expelled.. ++++++++++++++++++++++++. . Thanks to TWW and other watchblogs for standing in the gap. Were so far off the original model for doing church, Im not sure we can find our way back. Noevangelical: Both HBC & WC had a plurality of elders and a single pastor as the head of their church. This article is honest and faithful to what I knew at the time. Note, that they are always mentioned in a plural form. There does seem to be something in Dallass attitude of a disregard for those who donated the hundreds of millions to make the whole Harvest phenomenon work. I believe that if I hadnt been a strong donor, I would not have been considered and wouldnt have vaulted through Harvest leadership over more deserving peers. CJ Mahaney spread $$$ which brought him years of support from the Calvinista leaders. You have changed my perspective and I appreciate it. trust God and not your own self. Single pastor, plural pastors, plurality of elders, are pastors even a thing? birdoftheair: Very sobering time for disciples of the living God, our Saviour Lord Jesus. They tolerate whatever they must (loud music, annoying demands for money, sermons that go in one ear and out the other) in order to establish a community of friends and support in a cold world in which family is often spread across the continent. MORE CONCERNING THE ELDERSHIP They all rest on the character of the persons involved. I certainly have my doubts that Paul would be rejoicing over the likes of MacDonald, Hybels, Driscoll, and countless others who have taken advantage of the Body of Christ over the last 2,000 years. Consider the following Scriptures: And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors [POIMEN] and teachers (Ephesians 4:11). Your actions are tell tale in what you believe regard God and Jesus his son. Cut corners in the case of MacDonald, Hybels, Driscoll, and assorted others meant they decided it was OK to be a little wicked if a little good could come from it. Maybe the good old fashioned seven deadly sins list would be a good list to start with. Great! POIMEN, is translated to English as either pastor or shepherd. Robert Morris sits on the Board of Driscolls new church or at least he did Driscoll no longer lists Board members on his new website. Agreed; I cant imagine that Paul would be pleased with what is happening. Whose job is the ministry? Thats all it takes, my friend. Thank you!!!! I firmly believe we are experiencing another reformation. This is even more understandable in our world of online abuse. Even the FAQ section of this blog states Dee and Deb are interested in conflict, and I am graciously assuming they mean to help resolve it, not continue or inflame it. And the Christians who took Bibles and Tracts into the theaters for a little Soul-Winning(TM) after the movie had softened up the marks. Oh Dallas, for heavens sake, cut it out. really, what im saying is i think we can hold Paul and his comments loosely, just as we hold what others say loosely. We believe that disciples of Jesus profess that He is Lord, practice His Ways, and persevere in both their profession and practice. Theres an AUTHENTICITY in there. About how you think there is something wrong with you because you dont feel the same things that they do, and soon you come to believe that you are defective or damaged goods. Then in great heresy he says Mormons have the same Jesus as evangelicals! We share the common goal of wanting the abuse to stop. In the entire New Testament, the word only turns up once in the singular, 4th in a list of 5 useful gifts or roles (not official offices, near as I can tell) in Ephesians 4. Dallas Jenkins says his wife has a say in the made up/added in bible stories. I figure whenever Paul was speaking to us through Scripture, he was drawing from his personal knowledge of the Kingdom of God rather than what he thought about it. Identity, faith, sexuality, and gender--come learn what God's Word says about these topics in light of our current culture. Harvest Bible Chapel began meeting the Rolling Meadows High School building. Its not like a plurality of elders guarantees anything, or multiple pastors is anything special. Bayloy University Medical Center, 3500 Gaston Ave., Dallas, TX 75246 carlos_bll@yahoo.com Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, Diocese of Chicago and Detroit Bishop Peter Loukianoff 4/26/2019 Community Bible Church Ed Newton and Sean Metcalf 2477 N. 1604 East San Antonio TX 78232 5/1/2018 Harvest Bible Chapel Tampa Bay Rev. Dallas Jenkins: Neither Dean Butters nor I wanted our letters published. There are true men of God who are laboring in the field who never get accolades and honor bestowed on them this side of heaven. Like they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff? I am very glad for all your comments on this site. Trust me, youre not. On a side note, Im wondering if the wealth of knowledge that you and others like Jessica Hockett possesswondering if perhaps the two of you, along with a few other key people, have considered meeting and strategizing what could be some next steps going forward to help ensure that Gods people will never again be fleeced by the likes of James MacDonald, Luke MacDonald, Rick Donald, Jeff Donaldson, and, if it comes down to it, Donald Duck. And check your privilege while youre at it. For a son dishonors his father, a daughter rises up against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law a mans enemies are the members of his own household. Our students have weekly gatherings with worship, teaching, and group studies designed to propel them forward in faith. Who started Harvest Bible Chapel? If it werent for the subject matter, it would have been rated X (violence) and denounced by Christians as Violence/Torture porn. ANYONE who is still in that place who is not a child or a new believer is complicit and participated in shunning all who left. Harvest took in over a HALF A BILLION DOLLARS in the last 12 yrs and many of their properties were donated free and clear. And perhaps we should remember that Jesus did not come to set up authoritative institutions, but to gather his individual lost sheep. You think youre justified at all in bristling in obvious irritation that your letter, which is apparently the rest of the story truth about this very public figure, got out of your control and hit the public sphere? Plus there are several tombs of El Cid, the lost hero who saved Spain from the Muslim rulers in different cathedrals. All of the above is not an option, but it seems hard to pick one over any other. The official anniversary date was September 18, 2018. Dee has been at it for over ten years. be in sin, By creating offices and appointing people to them, we actually kind of circumvent that innate wisdom, we say this here guy has the title, hes the one, even if hes actually all facade and no substance. Id never seen the movie and still havent, but it was some pretty shocking stuff for a guy who hadnt seen a horror movie since the 1980s. Concerned for the vulnerable animals safety, he left his own gun by its side. You should repent and make reparations where necessary. And your husband whos probably going through a rough one. Almighty God himself being murdered by a corrupt religious cabal in collusion with the Roman military. Does that make you manly? Sad. HBC leaders will have to give an account before God for these things. So, as you imply, in their heart of hearts they dont really give a big hoot about reading the precious words in red, let alone the rest of Scripture. I can only imagine what was said as explanation, particularly as my spouse (still blindly loyal) remained much longer than I, until our children put up a united appeal to leave. Probably took over where my favorite Vietnamese restaurant used to be. I just wonder how much of my tithes went to support their gambling problem. You might find people here are a lot more willing to retract and set things right than the crowd youve run with. Once you step out of that or can no longer take part, the machine moves on without you. Thats it! Our staff and volunteer leaders cant wait to welcome your kids to our safe, secure, age-appropriate program. Dallas Jenkins, Executive Director, Vertical Church Media at Harvest Bible Chapel, and son of Jerry Jenkins of Left Behind fame, tells stories for a living and shares insider info about producing and directing films at Harvest in this session of the Pro Church Podcast. Thats too deep to answer. what are these things you see in such people that you identify as being grace-filled? Let the truth flow. (GOO GOO GA JOOB!)). Theres no edit function so it couldnt later be deleted. I think telling the truth is of much more value than creating or maintaining appearances. The Elephant Debt has painstakingly detailed these issues for over five years. I initially read that as bought him years of support.Same thing I guess. God looks lovingly upon your confusion and pain, and wants nothing more than for you to find and know him as he truly is, apart from all of the hypocrisy and falsity that parades as the institutional church. Our '3rd Service' is an online experience drawn from our live Weekend Gatherings. ex HCA Staff: Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain. Watch Video. Well, I assume that you are the Dallas Jenkins referred to in the OP, but I have no way of confirming that. Many a victim of domestic or spiritual abuse might have been better protected by understanding this reality. The Niles Campus became our third location in 2004. If I find solace anywhere, its in the quiet moments of solitude and silence wherein I sense anew that the mysteries of life are vast, and that my continued pursuit of that which is beautiful and simple and true is enough for now. A: To learn how to do church in order to manipulate, intimidate and dominate trusting souls. Dallas Jenkins produced the independent feature Hometown Legend at the age of 25 and shepherded it to distribution by Warner Brothers. No judgment from me. elastigirl: why does it matter what Max thinks, I took your text out of context a bit, so forgive me. This helped to hit the revenue target and qualify for Executive bonuses.. James mocking his own flock with his outrageous private Cabo party to end all parties, with the $50,000 magician, wont go unanswered. Please forgive me. And thats the cold, hard truth. But not genuine relationships. Zero current power holders at Willow Creek Community Church have uttered a single word condemning the sexual crimes of founder and 42 year leader Bill Hybels. Youre welcome. If leaders and led live like this, the details of polity scarcely matter. It is a position of authority and responsibility. PJ, with the loss of religious heritage a forgone conclusion, I suspect they will next be raping our children of their identities, if they havent already. Indeed. It used to be so unthinkable to imagine life without religion as I have always known it. Friend: And you have the same right as the rest of us to post anonymously. If their purpose or endeavor is of human origin, it will fail. Women's Bible Study. Debby: Check out the Stronger Mens Conference Too much I and not enough we in there. In March of 2000, Harvest Bible Chapel adopted the mission to establish Gospel-believing, Bible-teaching churches. not quarrelsome Who knows? And for keeping ones mouth shut on the way out? As for your dig at anonymous people, you are hoping to do the same thing. Both the Rolling Meadows and Elgin Campuses started food drives for the community to gather and distribute resources during the pandemic. Harvests former CFO, Fred Adams, now runs a sketchy consulting group that helps wealthy elite church insiders set up secret LLCs to buy church buildings so that the churches can then transfer wealth to them in the form of both monthly rentals instead of building equity for the members, while also authorizing the campuses to make major improvements and expansions that cost millions, which will then belong to the LLC owners, not the flock. At this point however the narrative cannot be controlled by people because God Almighty is acting now. Prayer and then in person, second after trying that, you are to take a witness in Christ / go with a brother in Christ to confront, then and only then you must take the church elders and confront your brother that he may turn and forsake his sins. Which answers your later points. Sadly, it is not uncommon to find that in time of great loss, the church is not really there for them after all, that in case of health problems that make one unable to serve, they are quickly forgotten, that the great majority of those friendships have a tendency to evaporate or even turn to shunning if put to the test; that it was all a grand illusion, after all the time, effort and loyalty invested. Therefore, churches today need to endeavour to attain a point where they are able to have elders. Ive got to process that letter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwSTe9uit48. Whether or not those offices were appropriate, church history shows they developed early and were ubiquitous. Gut tells me hes just another narcissist, and this latest incarnation is another game. I am not saying that I am a proponent of hierarchy. They truly have no idea. Samuel Conner: people who were being abused, manipulated, fleeced here under the sun, but who nevertheless were hearing the gospel (as they understood gospel), even though it looks to us like it was being preached from false motives. A friend became nearly apoplectic when I tried to explain this. Thats their business, doesnt have jack to do with church abuse. Gone on any safaris or gambling junkets with MacDonald & your dad? Give them what they want in the present, and they wont care about the past. The neocalvinist church where I was an elder, which started off without one big head leader who called himself pastor, and people generally treating people decently, lasted a year or so before the guys found this amazing, godly 5-point calvinist whod been on John MacArthurs staff at GCC and had been a leader in SGMand then he took over and then he brought in his right-hand man from another state to be the leader of the elder team and then those two decided that the elders in place had been given too much unbiblical power over the pastor and so we all had to cede all authority to him and just be good friends without all these unbiblical checks and balances on the man whom the Lord had hand-picked to be over us. The church (ecclesia) had little say in eldership or pastor. Dallas, his dad Jerry Jenkins, and James MacDonald also played poker together. You shouldve released your statement the first time around. Dallas Jenkins: It was given to the elders two months ago. If even one little thing God has brought me through can help someone else, I am exceeding glad. Christian celebrities would have no stage to perform on if they didnt have an audience willing to buy tickets. Every church should be safe and reliable. This often brings to my mind the movie Bridge Over the River Kwai. So you and Dean screwed up. Dallas Jenkins: There have been many people demanding our statements be made public, and now that they are, are rejoicing in that, 1 Corinthians 13:6 I have personally seen that place and I want no one to go there. Those of us who have come out of destructive groups like these can assure the survivors that there are other people out there who will love you back into soul health, there are other schools for your children who will treat them right, and some day you will look back on this time and thank God that He pulled you through it. Nothing is more dangerous than a tyrant who genuinely believes in his own false mission. If church leaders throughout Christendom wont take a stand to expose wayward peers and rebuke their ministry endeavors, it will be up to the pew to do this important task to inform and warn others in the Body of Christ to beware. So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? ChurchOne App . Ishy: Noevangelical: So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? (Not questioning its authenticity, just want to be clear on the context), What MacDonald has done must be documented, not only for the education of his next set of *followers* but for posterity. (Dee). I too often look around at this world, and feel discouraged and useless to make any difference. Their churches were of human origin, they failed. I think its one of the reasons that the mega movement has been so attractive to laity as well as leaders; they imagine that a bigger, more resource-rich group will be able to rescue more people from the terrible fate they would otherwise experience. Jesus said that you cannot serve both Him and Mammon. I was then presented with opportunity to post another letter that gives insight without including insulting and painful observations about others. The terminal stage 4 cancer exists. How many disasters do we need to see before people ask legitimate questions? How would church members do what you recommend? Its your choiceAnonymity is not the same thing as cowardice, but thanks so much for playing that tired old game. The wheels of justice turn slowly. Although, in a few places in Scripture he paused to advise us that he was speaking about a matter offering his opinion rather than what God was saying. Consider the listing of qualifications which Paul wrote to Titus and Titus: A BISHOP MUST BE I have my faith left, but so much that I thought was real about my faith has been shaken off. While I might be willing to grant that many elders/leaders probably start out with relatively good intentions, I suspect that the genuinely evil wolves (yes, I count MacDonald and Hybels as wolves, not fallen shepherds) are pretty good at picking out those who are most vulnerable to deception and temptation. the powerbrokers have manipulated everyone to heavily invest their finances, their time, energy, their relationships, and their own life in the institution. That included giving James $20K-$30K a MONTH to spend just on T&E. +++++++++++++++++++++. of good testimony with those who are outside (non-Christian) this time facilatated by the internet, just like the last one was with the printing press.. Well, age doesnt always equal wisdom, but it helps! But its ok its been part of this whole course but it would be nice if you could go back and reflect your motivations in those comments I cant speak for you but kinda think it had to do with some of your cult bonding you experienced at harvest. TS00: Truth was genetically modified centuries ago. All of the above is not an option, but it seems hard to pick one over any other. hospitable The majority of the people who were questioning you were NOT anonymous (including me), and there is more factual information about HBC on Twitter than there has ever been from HBC leaders own mouths, including yours. No more circumcision. January 24, 2023. We praise God as many heard the Good News that weekend. No more baptism. It really doesnt take long for traditions to get set in stone, as it were. I send my kids to a school literally run by bullies. Take away the money and you will find far fewer wolves circling the pot. So when I see the original Church held out for a few generations, I think Wow, amazing foundation!. He has directed and produced over a dozen . Lured by the hope of sitting someday at the right hand of The Man JMac, not Jesus. When I did my own looking into it I found dead ends, contradictions, and all kinds of other things that did not fit the protestant narative I was taught. What church does Dallas Jenkins attend? Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain as well (and save yourself the time writing me about how my faith must not have been that deep if indeed Im struggling with God and Jesus). hard for me to imagine a job description for this that commands a big salary, let alone a modest salary. The church needs the wisdom of age coupled with the energy of youth young folks to speed things up a bit, old folks to slow it down when necessary. As another new, unforeseen door opened to bring Harvest to the Aurora area, 200 people from the Elgin Campus were sent south, opening as the Aurora Campus on January 23, 2011. Then, I started laughing! But nowadays I find myself wondering what that even means. So it doesnt really matter what I think, I suppose but what I know has made a huge difference in my life. But this just doesnt seem to fit. , Info on the photo is apparently wrong. It is also pure, and I would say faulty, assumption to state that the main issue is that the flock will quickly go astray. These snakes congregate in the pit together! they also have worthy things to say which others benefit from. In the Seventies, I got mixed up in an end-of-the-world cult Fellowship(TM) that didnt have any single leader figure only a plurality of (20-to-25-year old) elders. Hall, Ive been consistent here and elsewhere under another net handle and under my actual name that I dont think the guys up to any good at all, either years ago or now. *you are Gods only light at the place of work. If you truly believed your comment you would not have posted it. FOR WITHOUT THEM ONE CANNOT SPEAK OF THE CHURCH. It becomes a social club or a corporation or a cult or whatever. Matt Chandler (born June 20, 1974) is the lead pastor of teaching at the Village Church, a Southern Baptist church in Flower Mound, Texas, and the President of the Acts 29 Network. Thats why the early church had congregational governance, rather than elder rule polity the Body of Christ had a say in who the church leaders were. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. They will return to their secrecy and self-dealing as a dog returns to his vomit, because power and money are that seductive and because if they could keep it a secret during the height of the Harvest scandal, no way will it be discovered at a less notorious church. Too many are like big box stores that shutter all of (the little churches on) Main Street, and then close their own doors forever. He was evidently so invested in making the Dramatic Point and leaving a Big Impression that I dont think he considered anyone else at that moment. ME GREAT WHITE HUNTER! The Elgin Campus held their first service in September 2004 with over 800 in attendance and has become the church home to more than 1000 worshipers every week, as well as the home of our Christian school. Lowlandseer: The elders [PRESBUTEROS] who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder [PRESBUTEROS] and a witness of the suffering of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed; shepherd [POIMEN] the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers [EPISKOPOS], not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly. (1 Peter 5:1-2). Or, in English, New TWW post. And I have collaborated with Ryan and Jessica, among others, throughout this. The chief interest of Port Royal lies rather in the silent witness which through two and a half centuries she has borne to the naval activities of the island of Jamaica, and in a measure to those of the British fleets which have from time to time visited these waters, than in any part which she has played in the internal domestic development of . After six months exclusively online, we returned to in person services in September 2020. I pray that God will continue to use you to shine a spotlight on wicked works of darkness in Christendom today. Association of Related Churches . said THATS what Jesus did for YOU!. Dallas, his dad Jerry Jenkins, and James MacDonald also played poker together. . What makes you think you get to excuse yourself from the table? Instead, the cowriters hope that the show will encourage viewers to read the gospels with renewed passion. I would ask that you take some time to think about it. Through prayer and provision, a permanent location for our North Shore Campuswas found in Highland Park, in September of 2015. In our services, our ministries, our music-in everything we do at Harvest, our passion and focus are to bring God glory through His Son Jesus Christ. Please do not use these as an excuse not to be part of a vibrant biblical church! Vincent: you must have first hand knowledge and part of that fellowship in some fashion. , Amy Moore: new incognito Floridian Santa Claus look, No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. (2 Cor 11:14). For you, maybe, but not for most here. James MacDonald was one the most well known mega church pastors in the U.S. until he was fired from Harvest Bible Chapel, the church he founded and pastored . You are the guy wearing the black hat. The first three paragraphs above is what I was hoping to comment on lol. Run away from any self-conceived leader who does not strive to live this way. In a Good Way. We believe that disciples of Jesus profess that He is Lord, practice His Ways, and persevere in both their profession and practice. We must put our unreserved trust in God alone, and to at least some degree view all men even our most trusted loved ones by their fruits. Wow. The Bible(s) of the Christian church is a very big and complex book, much of it written by men who never met Jesus, nor met anyone who heard Jesus teach. MacDonald may join him next year on the Stronger Men circuit. http://churchbuildingministry.org/who-we-are/. Also, your letter simply further bolsters credibility of the excellent work from the Elephants Debt and Julie Roys. seeing the beauty of the deposit of God in them. Neither Dean Butters nor I wanted our letters published. "Do Theologians LIke Russell Moore Ever Apologize for Theological Blunders of the Past?" This disturbing senior pastor made fun of other HBC church leaders for their physical attributes that he deemed not up to snuff with his obvious sartorial sense and unsurpassed personal good looks. This will always happen, there is no way to avoid it. If I were you, I would review what happened at Mars Hill and the Mark Driscoll implosion. The three terms above are from the Greek language, the original language in which the New Testament Scriptures were written. And I doubt it was simply losing their job, as many of them voluntarily left. I truly believe God provides the grace for elders to walk in the attributes in 1Tim 3but if a church isnt even looking at those thingsbut rather recommends a person onto an elder board because he/she is strategic or a fundraiser or a CEO or a finance person or a large donor (or whatever nonsensical qualification they THINK they need)this is the departure that I think God says no to. Dallas Jenkins is the creator, director and co-writer of The Chosen, which in addition to being the first multi-season series about the life of Christ is also the most successful media crowdfund of all time. The posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the comments both here and on Twitter from anonymous people. 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